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I think Terminator is a decent match for JXL's talents (listen to "The March" from Divergent), but this feels like further evidence that James Cameron is grooming him for Avatar 2, which I really hope ends up not being the case.
mpolonest123
2019-03-22 23:33:14
@Edmund I still stand by my opinion that Holkenborg scoring Avatar 2 could be pretty interesting. Pairing him up with a director who is known to be strict with his musical choices and continuing on from James Horner’s classic might produce something really good. And seeing his gradual progress as a composer with Mortal Engines and Alita have personally given me some hope (2 years ago I would have said hell no).
And I’m not surprised by the choice for T6. Not looking forward to this project at all but we did get a cool score from Balfe for the last one so maybe there is some hope for the music at least.
Miralsice
2019-03-23 02:00:27
I think that Tim Miller played a greater role in case of Terminator and Sonic. And I really don't see Junkie as good choice for Avatar 2.
Mephariel
2019-03-23 05:50:31
The problem I have with Junkie XL scoring Avatar is just that there are so many RCP composers better or more deserving. You have Zimmer, Powell, Gregson-Williams, Mancina, Jackman, Wallfisch...it is just so wrong to think Junkie XL is scoring Avatar and none of those guys are.
Hybrid Soldier
2019-03-23 09:59:02
"Deserving" is a word that doesn't exist in Hollywood, so stop thinking that way... lol
isildur
2019-03-23 11:48:46
Yep, if "deserving" existed, Atli would've gotten many more movies than he currently does.
Hybrid Soldier
2019-03-23 17:04:51
Atli is fine in Iceland, maybe he just doesn't want to look for trouble anymore... :)
mpolonest123
2019-03-23 17:18:07
John Powell would be an amazing choice, if only to get him more mainstream exposure.
The thing is, if you strip away the drums, sound design, and harsh-mixing Tom is a actually a pretty gifted “classical” composer imo. His string writing has always impressed me, and seeing his use of woodwinds in Alita definitely proved that he can write outside of the mold Hollywood had put him in post-Mad Max.
Avatar 2 is most likely going to need a pretty diverse score, if the first one is any indicator. James Horner combined traditional orchestra, tribal drums, ethnic elements, electronics, and masculine action writing. All of which I could see Tom doing quite well.
Knight
2019-03-23 18:34:25
John Powell's last score was for a Star Wars movie, I don't think you could get any more mainstream exposure than that.
mpolonest123
2019-03-23 18:54:00
^ Yet he’s still not quite a household name like some of his peers. HTTYD, Bourne, and Solo have all given him great exposure, but I feel like the general public doesn’t quite recognize him on the same level as Zimmer, Giacchino, or Williams.
KnightLite
2019-03-23 21:01:59
@Knight Powell’s last score was HTTYD3....
Iamtommie
2019-03-23 21:23:09
My choices for Avatar 2 would be: Powell or Newton Howard
01 - Discovery (3:13) 02 - I Don't Even Know My Own Name (5:44) 03 - What's Your Dream? (3:16) 04 - Double Identity (1:54) 05 - The Warrior Within (3:31) 06 - A Dark Past (1:29) 07 - Whose Body Is This? (2:06) 08 - In Time You'll Remember (0:58) 09 - Nova's Orders (2:48) 10 - Jackers Mission (2:36) 11 - Unlocking The Past (3:52) 12 - Grewishka's Revenge (4:23) 13 - Broken Doll (2:34) 14 - With Me (5:41) 15 - I'd Give You My Heart (3:07) 16 - Centurion (3:21) 17 - I See Church (5:48) 18 - What Did You Do? (3:41) 19 - You Just Lost A Puppet (2:30) 20 - In The Clouds (3:56) 21 - Raising The Sword (1:43) 22 - Swan Song - Dua Lipa (3:02) 23 - Motorball (5:14)
After listening through it, I'm branding it as another disappointing effort from Tom. It desperately needed a strong theme(s) like Divergent/Run All Night/Brimstone and it has none.
Knight
2019-02-05 16:49:05
But the instrumentation throughout is quite diverse, he seems to have traded most of his percussion for woodwinds. He's definitely getting better at writing for more instruments than strings/brass/percs. Hope his next outing is of a more solid type
MrZimmerFan
2019-02-05 17:44:28
Mortal Engines has a plenty themes and is muuch better than Divergent.
IMO (also, after several listen, i like it, not much as Mortal Engines, but is good)
mpolonest123
2019-02-05 18:01:35
That’s such a shame to hear. Mortal Engines was such an improvement for Tom imo, so I’m hoping that he isn’t going to be regressing into generic action/sound design-esque scores like the past few years.
And speaking of generic action, what is with his track record of scoring box office bombs? Mortal Engines, The Dark Tower, Point Break, Alita (possibly). I would kill to have him work with some talented directors for once, maybe give him a chance to break out of his usual style.
Knight
2019-02-05 18:27:53
This score isn't so much sound design as orchestral meandering. It's like they hired Tom to give them a score any other composer could. The best cues on it for me is: Discovery With Me I'd Give You My Heart In the Clouds Raising the Sword Motorball <(this is the only cue where Tom is really allowed to be himself)
Knight
2019-02-05 18:31:46
MrZimmerFan Divergent is my favorite JXL score simply due to the fact that it doesn't use his "signature" dirty grunge sound mix that pretty much all his scores use. However the London Suite from ME is one of my top JXL cues.
MrZimmerFan
2019-02-05 18:41:43
Knight, you simple love the Tom's electronic style (i like a lot Tomb Raider, but is for is much better constructed than Divergent, which i think is only okey as Mad Max), i don't, i prefer his later scores (Black Mass, The Dark Tower, Mortal Engines and Alita), because i enjoy his more orchestral (altough have electronics and synth material) material.
As for Alita, is more a emotional score (there is a plenty of orchestral parts than synth parts) than something like Mad Max or Divergent.
For a guilty pleasure, i rather listen 300
Knight
2019-02-05 18:59:53
lol I don't listen to Divergent for the synth stuff nor do I prefer his sythesizer-heavy scores. Black Mass is okay but a bit too droning at times, TDT I haven't heard, ME and Alita you know my opinion on. I love Divergent for it's orchestral/piano stuff not the electronics. The reason why I listed the 3 films I did was because all 3 have really strong themes going all throughout their respective scores. (Divergent/Tris theme, Run All Night/main theme, Brimstone/Liz theme)
mpolonest123
2019-02-05 19:19:24
My biggest problem with Brimstone are the long portions of droning in between the string performances. Outside of that though, there is about 30 minutes of excellent material. Dark Tower also has some really strong highlights, surrounded by some weak material.
As for Divergent, you have “Tris”, “Capture the Flag”, “Faction Before Blood”, “Sacrifice”, and “Everywhere and Nowhere”. Even some of the electronic stuff works pretty well.
Ds
2019-02-05 20:15:39
mpolonest123: that's a good (and sad) observation... however, talented directors and box office returns don't always go hand in hand. Mortal Engines is a Peter Jackson project, directed by someone else but followed closely by him. Alita is a James Cameron project, directed by someone else but followed closely by him. It doesn't get much better than those two names... :)
mpolonest123
2019-02-05 22:24:24
@Ds Well if Cameron ever wants to work 1-on-1 with him, I would LOVE to hear him take on the Avatar sequels. And yes, I’m well aware that everybody will probably try to lynch me over that opinion, but I would be so curious to see how Holkenborg would stack up with someone like James Cameron, who is known for being very demanding on the music of his films.
As for Alita, I’ve given it a spin and........ ehh. Nothing terrible, but really nothing inspired either. It’s like sonic wallpaper, pleasant as background music, but not really interesting as a stand alone listen. The most interesting track is definitely “Motorball”, which definitely has JXL’s stamp.
Ds
2019-02-05 22:47:19
For now I can agree on Alita. I'll wait til I hear the score in context before making any judgement, but yeah Motorball is pretty kick-ass (even though it's a pure JXL action track like he's done many already).
I don't think working with a very demanding director is any problem for Tom. He looks like a super nice person, very open minded and collaborative, and I'm sure working with him is a real pleasure and he'll deliver what the director wants. So yes, why not? It'd be fun to hear what he could do in the Avatar world.
Mephariel
2019-02-06 00:02:41
Avatar 2 I don't see...
I think the closest Junkie will get to Cameron is scoring Terminator 6.
...
2019-02-06 09:13:59
I think it's a little strange that a new Junkie XL score gets more comments and discussion than a release of Zimmer's Thin Red Line. This is HZ.com after all.
Edmund Meinerts
2019-02-06 09:26:13
There's not so much to say about the TTRL release...there's only so many variations of "yay can't wait to hear this" that exist, after all, and the only other thing you can do is speculate about the contents. With a new score - any new score - that's actually out there and available to listen to, there's much more to talk about. So once TTRL actually hits shelves, you'll see more discussion.
What *I* find odd is that people would rather talk about this than HTTYD3...
...
2019-02-06 09:45:04
Yes, Dragon 3 is much more interesting than this.
Ian
2019-02-07 03:09:55
@mpolonest123
Re: "And speaking of generic action, what is with his track record of scoring box office bombs?"
Honestly, I think this has a lot to do with the fact there is an abundance of superior composers working today, even just at RCP.
Even Lorne, for all the shit he seems to get, is considerably more competent IMHO
Ds
2019-02-07 14:03:36
@Ian: there aren't many composers who would turn down offers like working on Jackson's Mortal Engines or Cameron's Alita. So I think it's complete non-sense to even think Junkie XL could be a by-default choice for bad movies that can't afford a better composer. He gets high profile movies that are sometimes too bold for modern audiences (I'm not speaking about Point Break, though).
He's also got a few big successes like Deadpool - a shame the score is one of his worst.
Oscarilbo
2019-02-14 18:20:55
Saw the film last sunday and loved it. Also loved what Tom Holkenborg did hear. It did not felt nor 300. RoE nor Mad MAx. It's something else and loved it how it worked in context.
Knight
2019-02-15 11:32:04
After repeated listens of the score and seeing the film 3 times, I'd say now that the score is MUCH better than I initially gave it credit for. Alita's theme (the 4 notes first heard at 1:53 in A Discovery) is used many times throughout the score in many instrumental varieties and variations, and used to great effect in emotional scenes (I Don't Even Know My Own Name, What's Your Dream?, In Time You'll Remember, With Me, I'd Give You My Heart, What Did You Do), In the Clouds especially) And do yourself a favor and get I See Church from somewhere, it's the 2nd best action track of the score after Motorball. -------------------- In short, I would now give it a 4.5 / 5 from my previous 3 / 5
Knight
2019-02-15 11:39:42
My only real gripes left with the score is the somewhat uninspired choral writing (and the fact that the choir sounds like samples in a lot of moments) and the reused percussion samples from every JXL action score ever since Mad Max.
Anonymous
2019-02-16 23:07:40
Where can I listen to I see church?
I cannot find it anywhere and even YouTube doesn't have it.
Knight
2019-02-17 02:28:31
Currently the only way I know to get it from is Japanese iTunes.
Anonymous
2019-02-17 15:53:04
I got them from a japanse store after an hour going through hoops VPN paypal and google translate.
Very strange cause this are one of the best tracks of the entire score
Very weird the score or the movie havent attracted much attention at all.
jEN0VA
2019-02-21 04:08:04
Does anyone know where you can get a digital version of the Japanese versions 2 bonus tracks?
AlitaFan
2019-02-22 22:57:52
The Japanese version can be ordered here: http: //www.cdjapan.co.jp/ product/WPCR-18185
The "Swan Song" is also included on the CD. So it has 3 additional tracks.
nvictor
2019-02-25 17:57:58
Knight, who are you exactly to brand other people efforts as "disappointing"?
Knight
2019-02-25 20:08:42
I say things as I see them, and the fact that this is my opinion on it should not need to be stated as it is plain as day. Either way it doesn't matter as I revised my statement on it.
Edmund Meinerts
2019-02-25 22:58:08
He's the same as you or me. A commenter in an open forum who is 100% entitled to express his opinion. Who are you to tell him otherwise is the real question?
nvictor
2019-03-02 17:45:39
Knight, apologies for calling you out. i am tired of the backlash other composers get on this forum if they are not Hans. if their work shouldn't be discussed here maybe the shouldn't be represented here at all imo.
Edmund, i am a fan of music here. i do not pretend to have the skills these people have and only aspire to learn from them. the backlash Junkie has received here is definitely unjustified. he is the one out there doing what most composers don't have time to do. it's one thing to say you don't like some music. it's another to pretend you know what one should have done if you were in their shoes...
that said, i have seen you (Edmund) go hard on composers too. but you seem to make good arguments. and i haven't seen you used a condescending tone yet. if you did, i believe i would have called you out :P not saying we should settle for bad music. all i am saying is let's respect the work and the art...
Does anyone have the "Motorball" cue from end credits? It sounds like the beginning of the "Motorball" track but it's different than on the OST. It plays directly after the Swan Song track...
Why is it left off the CD?
Knight
2019-02-22 17:44:08
Theres quite a bit of good unreleased stuff from this score. Stuff like the cue that plays during Alita's first game of motorball with the other kids, the bar fight music, the unused string rendition of Alita's theme and the end titles arrangement of Motorball/Swan Song.
It seems the Japanese exclusive tracks are available on deezer, but not on any other platform. And weirdly enough, I couldn't find any download link anywhere.
I’ve been giving this score a few more shakes lately, if only to see if my initial opinion had changed. The biggest issue for me is the lack of a strong set of themes. Alita’s Theme, for example, works well enough in context but hasn’t really left any impression on me. Mortal Engines has about 7 primary themes, all of which are really strong.
Where I will praise Tom the most is the recording. Everything sounds crisp and clear, as opposed to his usual overmixed style. Here’s hoping that he sticks with this type of recording from now on. And one other plus, the woodwinds! It’s so refreshing to hear the woodwinds play a prominent role here, especially in the almost classical way they are utilized.
Knight
2019-02-18 19:51:38
Ditto on the recordings, Mortal Engines was awful in this regard with the harsh mix and on top of that, an unforgiveable amount of session noise/chatter.
mpolonest123
2019-02-18 20:09:46
@Knight Yeah I really can’t argue there. As much as I love Mortal Engines even I have to admit that recording was kind of awful, particularly with the studio noise filtering through.
Credits for Dua Lipa's single "Swan Song" for the movie: Written by Dua Lipa, Justin Tranter, Kennedi Lykken, Mattias Larsson, Robin Fredriksson & Tom Holkenborg Produced by Mattman & Robin
Wouldn't surprise me but I sure hope not. Holkenborg is an alright composer but he could never achieve what Horner did on the first Avatar. Unless of course Conrad Pope "helps" him out of course
Japanese edition of the score contains 2 extra tracks: Centurion (3:21) I See Church (5:48) ---------------------------- I See Church sounds like it has a lot of the elements from Motorball... Why was this left off the regular album again?
MrZimmerFan
2019-02-08 15:38:13
Motorball and I See Church are instrumental versions of Dua Lipa's song
Knight
2019-02-10 01:01:14
Just watched the film and they definitely are not. Motorball seems to be a suite or a combination of the cues used in the Motorball sequences, and I See Church is yhe cue that plays when Alita rushes to save her boytoy
Knight
2019-02-10 01:07:04
Centurions should go after I Don't Even Know My Own Name (I think) and I See Church goes after I'd Give You My Heart
Anonymous
2019-02-10 01:20:24
So with the bonus tracks do we have a chronological order yet?
Knight
2019-02-10 08:00:58
Going by the track names, I'd say it's in chronological order but I'm not 100% sure.
Anonymous
2019-02-10 13:05:32
Knight, was confirmed by Milan Recotds
Anonymous
2019-02-10 20:33:17
Where can we listen to those? Cant find them anywhere...
This Junkie tutorial is intriguing because he literally points out that Mortal Engines was so good because Jackson managed him closely, see from 4:00 onwards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb3i6nKiG5c&feature=share
Totally hearing it here. Miller and Jackson are people with clear visions, Alita is a mess again. Junkie is literally a junkie, he gorges on ideas but can't consolidate them unless someone powerful tells him to do that in a specific way.
Slightly disappointed here but it is also great to hear those orchestral fibres come through and let the woodwinds shine. I that is a huge growth area for HZ Industries. The themes are fine, but the argument that Junkie needs to meet better musically minded directors does not make sense. Whoever made that comment probably has not heard of Robert Rodriquez the composer or the few trend changes that an unknown director called Jim Cameron instituted in his spare time. Solid score but a disappointment after Mortal Engines
Looking forward to hearing this one. Looks like this is the first score since Divergent not to use his over-harsh "Mad Max" mixing that he's been using on all his scores from 300 to present.
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